How to Battle Writers
Finally getting around to emptying out and cleaning my mailbox.
Had another insider send me this a while back.
It’s more CE guides.
Now, I know everyone is blowing off our “DS hates writers” conspiracy theory. And this little document seems to bear this out. It says to always address the writer as an esteemed collegue and always be very nice.
It still seems strange to me that writers don’t get to look at this. I mean, it’s got some pretty good tips in here that would help a lot of people avoid rewrites.
As far as people not grooving on the “DS hates writers” meme….look, it’s simple:
The newest Copy Editor can reject an article written by a writer with 2,000 articles under their belt. Period.
Yes, there can be appeals. And the writer would probably win. But that’s a lot of extra work.
That’s an outrageous balance of power.
Until that’s fixed – DS has some problems.
Anyway, here’s the docs. Enjoy. (PDF)
@KT You’re awfully late to the party, dude. Everyone already knows that now. Get it in gear, and get with the program. Try reading the forums before making stupid comments on blog posts from the summer of 2010.
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@KMA: “If I send back an article for a rewrite and it doesn’t come back to me, I don’t get paid.”
No, that is not true. We get paid whether the writer does the rewrite or just abandons it. But we do not get another $3.50 for the second edit. So why in the world would we ask for a rewrite that was not justified, and effectively cut our rate in half?
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I want to say thanks to KMA for providing the CE perspective, particularly here:
“So to be put on quasi-probation for not rewriting articles because an article doesn’t conform to a vague title is hard to swallow. Not necessarily wrong on DMS’s part, but, like I said, I’m just trying to figure out the why behind copy editors’ actions, for the sake of frustrated writers.”
That helps, because I’m currently fuming over rewrite instructions that are longer than my original article. I’ve written several pieces in this exact format and most have been accepted with no changes. My ratings are above 4 on both writing and research, so I think I have a solid performance record. But the CEs don’t seem able to agree among themselves about what they’re supposed to look for, and it’s aggravating. From your comments, it sounds like that confusion originates from above.
One of my greatest frustrations as a writer, beyond inconsistency and the sometimes asinine rewrite requests, is the condescending tone many CEs take. I’m not stupid, I’m not slow, and I don’t need to have a concept spelled out for me in three different ways. The passive-voice example in the PDF, in which the CE is instructed (oops, passive construction!) to explain to the writer that active voice consists of “subject-verb-object,” helps me understand WHY some CEs think over-explaining basic concepts in a patronizing manner is part of their job description.When they misspell words or use incorrect grammar–I have had DS CEs do both–it’s even more frustrating.
Now, I’ll be fair. I’ve worked in other venues as both a writer and an editor. Some people can’t handle power, even the tiny shred of power over a $15 article. Those are the writers who think every word they pen is sacred and flip out at any changes, as well as the editors who constantly flog their intellectual superiority over writers. One of those people made me miserable at my last office job. I had to share an office with her for 40+ hours each week, and she snarked at me constantly. Given that such toxicity is part of some people’s makeup and therefore unavoidable, I do prefer the DS setup, where I get it in a few anonymous paragraphs occasionally and can choose to abandon the rewrite and thus not deal with it.
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Writers don’t “bother” to work on rewrites because most of the time the rewrites are stupid. They simply aren’t worth our time to do in 80 percent of cases. DS is notorious for the ridiculous rewrites, and they’re the main reason that the company has lost so many good writers over the years. I have had some rewrites you wouldn’t believe. It’s just incredible how ignorant, uneducated and illogical some of the editors are. I have had them send me questions that my 8-year-old can answer. If you want them to send back a rewrite, just have it make sense.
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There are bad CE’s. Or at least, CE’s who do not rise to the potential of their title.
There are bad writers. See above.
The key is, not to lump everyone into the same overall category. I agree that there is a stunning lack of consistency among CE’s (and writers), but consider: DS is a whole new ballgame in the world of writing. We need to work together and prioritize consensus. It won’t happen else.
Personally, I take responsibility for my part in that. I’m a Moderator for the CE forums, and make it my mission to post those wrangly Q&A’s that staff answer into coherent documents for the benefit of everyone, as example. You’ve seen some of the ‘Top-Secret’ documents that we work with, note that there aren’t hard and fast rules for many situations.
When you are used to working with one editor ala ‘The Real World’, there becomes an inherent advantage in that you can easily and quickly grok their own personal style, and conform accordingly. Ditto for writers from the editor side of the fence. With platforms like DS, this sort of peer camaraderie is essentially non-existent. For whatever reason, we aren’t allowed to sign our names on the edits, and so there is a great deal of anonymity which fosters conspiracy and shadows and all manner of plotting to ruin, humilate and cause you General Grief.
I can personally assure you that, despite the glaring frustrations we all experience, we want every writer that crosses our path to succeed. Nothing would tickle my inner thrill more than to sit down, change a comma here and there and send it off. Dream and Joy! Alas. But there is no hidden agenda, no secret behind-the-scenes railing that we will butcher, slay and confuse at all costs. DS, assuredly, recognizes the need to foster better communication, but it’s a new model, a new paradigm. We are a virtual newsroom of literal thousands. In the end, we’re all just trying to do our jobs, and it’s in our best interests for we-the-people to figure out where the gaps are, and mend them however we can.
Sites like this are a good step, if they foster a sense of community and understanding (even with the obvious and understandable rants). Who knows? We may all stumble on a solution that allows us to be more effective in rising to the standards of editing and publication, thus ensuring that none of us ever have to work a day job again. I’m certainly game. Suggestions? You have my email.
And I don’t know about you, but that’s my underlying goal. My chosen lifestyle, and the pursuit therein. Right now, I’m writing this in my pajamas with the sleep still in my hair. At 2:37 in the afternoon. I may just go grab a glass of wine after I finish this.
Given the big picture? It’s hard to complain. And yes. I’m also a writer. Behold my covert agenda.
Your comrade-in-arms,
TSC
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Good points, jekhyl. If DMS has some secret agenda for topics that isn’t reflected in the title and the writer takes the “wrong” slant, there’s nothing to be done. We’re not mind-readers.
Really, the bottom line here doesn’t have a lot to do with the skill/knowledge or writers or CEs. Getting published with DMS is a crap shoot. Terrible articles go through, good articles get rejected. Errors are inserted and can’t be removed. DMS just doesn’t care.
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Interesting. I wish I’d known CEs were being told to sign off with ‘good luck’. I’ve only let one article expire, and it was because the CE was asking for a weird re-write and then abruptly ended- good luck. I took it as a threat, as in ‘good luck getting this approved’.
I would like to know why there is such huge variation on my scores. Are the CEs trained at all on a standard scoring system? Reading some of the DS threads, it doesn’t sound like it. It is stupid to have an inconsistent scoring system if they are suddenly going to turn topics (like H&G) that I exclusively write and make them ‘special projects’… and then invite people who’ve never written that topic, nor ever want to, but exclude people who already have been. And then only approve them if they have the right ‘scores’. Luckily I have mid to high 4s, but really, what does that even mean when they’re so inconsistent? They should either train CEs in scoring or get rid of the scores. I find it hard to believe I’m so bi-polar that I can start off the month with an article that got 2 5s, and then my very next article scored below 4s. Both without a rewrite or any changes. I know I am not that inconsistent as a writer.
The CEs are not proofreaders. I wish they were. The last 2 articles I wrote that had misspelled titles… I was directed by TC to tell the CE to change. Which I did in my first sentence. Both times the CEs completely rewrote my articles, passed them through without rewrites— complete with the misspelled titles that they were so busy ‘editing’ my articles that they forgot to change.
BTW- I have found it refreshing to read this site.
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“The point someone else made earlier about learning to separate the decent writing from the crap is very valid, I think. If an article is basically well written but you’re unsure of the subject matter, trust the writer and let it pass. Save your rewrites for the hacks who don’t know “grammer.””
I think the problem is that there weren’t necessarily “grammer” problems in the articles. At least, that’s the impression I got. The articles looked fine in that regard but, apparently, DMS found something wrong with them. Perhaps there was a problem with the facts or, maybe, DMS just didn’t like the slant.
This is one of the big problems with DMS. They tell you to use your best judgment then ding you when it doesn’t match theirs.
But the impression I got was that the articles weren’t necessarily poorly written, but DMS still had a problem with them.
I got that from these statements:
‘Of the probably almost 200 articles I edited in that time period, they pulled a few to use for my performance review (makes sense). The ones they pulled I guess didn’t meet certain standards. I’m still learning the standards.”
and
“I didn’t think these articles were crappy. I’m not an expert on everything, and since I’m reading a wide range of topics, they seemed fine to me. I reworked them the best I could. I would prefer to only read stories on topics I am familiar with, so that I can know if what the writer is directing the reader to do makes sense, or if there are “valid errors.” But I have to take what comes in the queue.”
Which is why I think CEs should edit in their area of expertise rather than whatever they get. On the one hand, I understand that they are reading it the way a reader might. On the other, if they don’t know shit about the subject matter, they can’t tell if it’s right and that leads to either “stupid” changes or “stupid” rewrites.
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KMA, I appreciate your taking the time to share your perspective. It’s almost comforting to learn that DMS doesn’t just pick on writers, but seems to exercise poor management across the board. Vague reviews with general criticism are confusing and meaningless and just frustrate the reviewee, but they sure make the reviewer feel powerful and productive.
The point someone else made earlier about learning to separate the decent writing from the crap is very valid, I think. If an article is basically well written but you’re unsure of the subject matter, trust the writer and let it pass. Save your rewrites for the hacks who don’t know “grammer.”
I disagree that you are a “only” a proofreader. CEs have the power to reject articles based on not liking the slant the writer took to the title, or for providing facts other than the ones the CE wanted to see. They also have license to do TOTAL rewrites and make articles cease to be the work of the person whose name is attached. Maybe you don’t do that, but it’s permitted by DMS.
If you were just a proofreader, you would have no input into content, but just be correcting minor errors and typos.
Personally, that’s exactly what I would like to see CEs doing, and reporting to DMS the writers whose work is so bad that simple proofreading can’t save it, so those writers could be bounced (after maybe one warning) because they’re either working too fast and churning out crap just to make a buck, or they’re unqualified for the job.
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To clarify, the title does go back into the system for another writer to pick up but the article does not.
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KMA, you should be paid for all abandoned rewrites so if you are missing that money, let DS know. CEs are supposed to be paid when a writer abandons a rewrite and that article disappears. It does not go back into the system to be checked by another CE and the writer cannot reclaim the title. When a writer abandons an article, we’re basically washing our hands of it. We might submit it later under a similar title or to another site but otherwise, it’s gone.
Several CEs on the DS forums have clarified this for us in the past so I just don’t want you to miss out on any of your paycheck over it.
I feel for you on the reviews. I’ve heard that they can be pretty harsh.
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Oh, also, I don’t know if I made this clear: If I send back an article for a rewrite and it doesn’t come back to me, I don’t get paid. So I don’t know why copy editors would be doing this so frequently except to sacrifice the task to save the job. Maybe I just should’ve said that in the first place.
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Like I said, I can only speak for myself. I wasn’t trying to defend copy editors, only to provide a possible reason why so many articles do come back for rewrites. And just as you say there are some bad writers, there are also some bad copy editors. Just as not all the stories I edit are badly written, not all the articles you write return to you with ridiculous rewrite requests. But the stupid things stand out and we start to think that they represent the whole.
Of the probably almost 200 articles I edited in that time period, they pulled a few to use for my performance review (makes sense). The ones they pulled I guess didn’t meet certain standards. I’m still learning the standards. This is why newspapers have slot editors. I didn’t do anything differently in the time period of my second review as compared with that of my first (which was pretty OK), so it’s a little hard for me to know where to go from here. The only thing I can figure is to send back stories for rewrites if there is even a hint of uncertainty. Perhaps other copy editors work this way …?
I’m not an editor. I’m a copy editor, essentially a proofreader. So to be put on quasi-probation for not rewriting articles because an article doesn’t conform to a vague title is hard to swallow. Not necessarily wrong on DMS’s part, but, like I said, I’m just trying to figure out the why behind copy editors’ actions, for the sake of frustrated writers. And the why may be that they’re trying to stay on DMS’s good side.
I don’t know anything about “secret quotas,” so I wouldn’t make that claim. I know that it has been recommended to me to edit a certain number of articles a week, though I don’t think this was an actual requirement. And of course I want to edit as much as I can, as I’m being paid by volume.
In response to:
“Surely there are enough truly crappy articles out there so that you don’t have to invent reasons to waste our time.”
and
“Send back crap for rewrites, and send the decent stuff through. If you are really paranoid that you have been too lenient, at least find valid errors in the article.”
and
“You got dinged because you overlooked some things that were actually bad, not because you failed to waste writers’ time with nonsense requests. And DS articles aren’t “stories” anyway.”
I didn’t think these articles were crappy. I’m not an expert on everything, and since I’m reading a wide range of topics, they seemed fine to me. I reworked them the best I could. I would prefer to only read stories on topics I am familiar with, so that I can know if what the writer is directing the reader to do makes sense, or if there are “valid errors.” But I have to take what comes in the queue. I don’t have access to all the stories, just a random 10 at any given time. Perhaps that’s also part of the issue: that a writer knows what he’s talking about, but his copy editor doesn’t. Copy editors can choose preferences based on their personal knowledge, but the queue only takes these as suggestions, and frequently most or all of what’s in my queue covers topics I have no experience in.
By the way, I call them “stories” I guess because my experience is in newspapers, and there are several formats for writers, like lists, how-tos, fact sheets, etc. Seemed a nice generic term.
I only commented to help you guys out, since you are clearly frustrated (and because you seem to enjoy being privy to what copy editors know/do). I was responding to the blog post, though, not necessarily the commenters. So my initial comment was not meant to invalidate any of the comments. Just to stand next to them. It does sound a bit like I was defending myself, but really, I just want to give a different perspective so we can all figure out WHY all of this is happening. I may not be presenting any solutions. I’m just throwing my knowledge into the pool.
Thank you for your response, by the way. Sorry about your frustrations.
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kma-
I don’t mean to pick on you, but if you got in trouble for not sending back crappy articles for rewrites, then you should have sent back those crappy articles for rewrites.
I don’t doubt the existence of shitty writers at DS-cum-DMS. Just look at all the Z-forum posts where people talk about “grammer” and “plagerism.” I’m sure those people deserve all the rewrites they get.
What decent writers hate is when a CE sends back an article for a rewrite, and all that is being asked is a really really really stupid question. I’ve had this happen numerous times. My math example is just one. The CE changed nothing in the article, had no other questions. Sending back something just for the sake of sending it back is a waste of time. Surely there are enough truly crappy articles out there so that you don’t have to invent reasons to waste our time.
You got dinged because you overlooked some things that were actually bad, not because you failed to waste writers’ time with nonsense requests. And DS articles aren’t “stories” anyway.
I hate it when CEs complain that they have secret quotas of rewrites and rejections. That wouldn’t be in DMS’s interests, so I find it extremely hard to believe. Just be consistent. Send back crap for rewrites, and send the decent stuff through. If you are really paranoid that you have been too lenient, at least find valid errors in the article.
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I can only speak for myself as a copy editor, and a relatively new one at that, but these are some of my thoughts.
I don’t like sending stories back for rewrites because usually at that point I’ve put a bit of work (and TIME) into the story and frequently (probably at least half the time) the writer doesn’t bother doing the rewrites (which are usually, in my case, specific questions and easy fixes) and the story disappears. So I am not compensated for that article. I think at that point it does go back into the queue eventually, so some other copy editor will benefit from my work. HAVING SAID THAT, I got a performance review today (I guess we get these every couple of weeks — this is my second, and I started at the beginning of July), and while my first review wasn’t so bad and was mostly informative and corrective, this one basically said I was doing a terrible job and was on a sort of probation because I didn’t send back a bunch of articles for rewrites like I apparently should have. In these particular articles, the writing was just plain not good. And how do you address that with a writer? “Try to write better, and let me know when you’re done”? So now I’m on eggshells. I say all this not to complain about my review, but to inform writers why perhaps copy editors send stories back with a certain amount of frequency. Pure paranoia. Sort of a joke, really, that this content-cranking company has such standards for it’s [low-paid] copy editors but apparently very very low ones for its writers. The quality of writing that I’ve seen ranges from adept and fluid to can’t-put-a-sensical-sentence-together.
Like I said, I don’t mean to be complaining, just informing the writers from a copy editor’s perspective. It’s my choice to do this job, and mostly, I love the flexibility, easy extra cash straight into my account and ability to work from home. Really, when you think about it, it’s fantastic. But my feelings are kind of hurt today because I’ve never made a boss anything but very happy (I’m a damn fine copy editor) and perhaps I take work reviews a little too much to heart. And I wanted to help similarly frustrated, um, co-workers, as it were.
Hope this helps. Thanks.
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*groan* I had a CE who literally could not figure out how (50 – 40)/2 = 5. I combined simple math into one step because I thought it would be pretty ridiculous to make a separate section for each step of a quick computation. It was in a step of a non-technical article, so maybe the CE wasn’t prepared to edit something involving math?
His/her comment was, of course, “Please check your math in this step.” What could I write? “Dear CE, clearly you are not smarter than a 5th grader. Perhaps if I try really hard I can bring you up to speed with a 3rd grader. 50 minus 40 equals 10, and 10 divided by 2 equals 5. Please do the world a favor and end your life now.”
3+ years prior editing experience in print media? Editing what? Those Chinese zodiac paper placemats? Fortune cookie fortunes? Notes written on post-its? Fucking moron.
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Oh, and nothing in there, of course, about how writers are now supposed to just argue our case to the CE rather than trying to appeal. It’s not like that’s useful information for CEs to have or anything.
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Why do these guidelines instruct the CE to not be specific (i.e., say “check the math” instead of “I got this answer but you got a different answer”)? If the CE did the math to see that the writer was incorrect, it’s not like pasting their work into the comment box is going out of their way.
And on the other hand, the guidelines instruct CEs to use specific examples for passive voice, since obviously writers are too stupid to figure that one out.
I don’t get it.
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Patrick, I’m afraid you’ve made what my grandmother would call a “big boo-boo” (or a small one, anyway). We’ve been able to access the writers’ version of these very tips, with the guidelines you’ve cited as a means to avoid rejections and rewrites, under “Training Camp” in the Writers’ Resource Center since last March. You’ll find it under “What Do CEs Want From Me?”
The only difference between the document you’ve linked and the document on the Demand site can be found in the instructions that ask CEs to write helpful, cordial notes. That makes sense since only the CEs need those directions.
That section also bears out what some people have claimed on this site, that Demand doesn’t actively encourage friction between the writers and editors. In fact, this document suggests quite the opposite.
Now, the question is what does the company do when CEs don’t follow those instructions? None of us can answer that, since the company doesn’t announce it no longer permits a CE to edit or why, but it would be worth knowing.
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